Templar569 ([info]templar569) wrote,
@ 2008-07-09 09:31:00
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If it's wrong to think the thread about the guy taking the Host instead of eating it is the funniest thing I've read on FO in some time, I'm fine with being wrong. Because it's hilarious, at least if you're neutral on the subject of religion and can just sit back and watch the fireworks without getting emotionally invested.

Edit: And it introduced me to the term "flaming douchnozzle," which is being added to my lexicon for certain.

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[info]malakym
2008-07-09 02:28 pm UTC (link)
flaming douchenozzle is AWESOME.

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[info]templar569
2008-07-09 03:52 pm UTC (link)
Isn't it, though?

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[info]king_nerd
2008-07-09 02:34 pm UTC (link)
Hoo boy...Tebriel just doesn't seem to get it sometimes.

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[info]templar569
2008-07-09 02:40 pm UTC (link)
He's really a good guy, you know. But he is also a Believer, with a capital "B." That colors his perceptions sometimes.

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[info]king_nerd
2008-07-09 02:43 pm UTC (link)
It's just that in a thread like that you don't want to bring up a link that says that transubstantiation occurred circa 800 AD and that it has been subsequently "proved" by scientific examinations that started in 1572.

Or that science has confirmed that the relic is a piece of a human heart.

It's just not the right thread.

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[info]mropus
2008-07-09 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Can I go in there and compare what that guy did to smuggling a T-bone steak out of Olde Country Buffet? I reeeealy want to.

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[info]king_nerd
2008-07-09 03:23 pm UTC (link)
I would suggest not...

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[info]shadowtherat
2008-07-09 03:30 pm UTC (link)
let me tell you about the rhythm method since condoms and birth control are made from ground up fetuses

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[info]mropus
2008-07-09 03:10 pm UTC (link)
Some of them are acting quite unchristianlike, aren't they?

And I'm only at page 3!

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[info]templar569
2008-07-09 03:50 pm UTC (link)
Oh, it gets better. Funniest thread of the year, I think.

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[info]enderwastaken
2008-07-09 03:17 pm UTC (link)
I'm more of the mind that if you are going to start cracking down on stuff, then actually crack down. And that means the thread should have been flushed.

Though I'm loving the hypocrisy. Christianity is fine, but the beliefs of Scientology are too out there. We need to show respect for all unproven beliefs... oh hey link to a thread where I was mocking belief in unproven baseball superstitions. "Lol, DnD nerds never have sex" gets a ban, "you're a cunt" is cool. Atheists are too aggressive... meanwhile we have a Jack Chick thread a few slots down, and another dealing with upticks in sectarian violence between faiths in Iraq, and another that mentions anti-abortion protesters killing and firebombing the other side.

Complete disconnect in thought process.

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[info]templar569
2008-07-09 03:49 pm UTC (link)
I've learned over the years that some people are just immune to cognitive dissonance, and no matter what you do, they'll never adjust their point of view. Whether that is out of sheer pigheadedness; or a lack of intellect/critical thinking; or a need for some rock upon which to stand in this scary, ever-changing world; or just an honest, fervent belief in whatever your belief system is and its place in the universe; or possibly a combination of these things I've never determined.

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[info]enderwastaken
2008-07-09 03:52 pm UTC (link)
True, but to me that is the point in arguing it - you aren't going to convince the True Believer (TM) but you are going to expose them (e.g. Teberiel and claiming transubstantiation is scientifically proven), and thus win over those on the fence.

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[info]kiwialyssa
2008-07-09 04:04 pm UTC (link)
There's proving people who are factually wrong incompetent, and then there's attacking someone's faith because you happen to hold a different belief or lack there of. I see both, and the emphasis of my "aggressiveness" thing was on the latter.

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[info]kiwialyssa
2008-07-09 03:50 pm UTC (link)
It's not that atheists are "too aggressive" it's that every religious thread I come accross certain atheist posters seem to take it upon themselves to attack the religion or religious beliefs in question with as much assholeishness as possible.

Why? What good comes from stirring up a bees nest of competing views that you know people are going to be passionate about?

It's really easy for an atheist to discuss religion with someone who happens to have faith in a manner bereft of being an asshole, but these certain people do not.

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[info]kiwialyssa
2008-07-09 03:52 pm UTC (link)
And again, it's not singling atheists out, I know there's another side to this coin as well and it's just as bad.

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[info]templar569
2008-07-09 03:55 pm UTC (link)
There is something about "hardcore" atheism that attracts a certain type of person who gets off on being intellectually superior to other people. Probably the same type that would have burned witches with self-righteous fervor 4 centuries ago.

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[info]enderwastaken
2008-07-09 04:07 pm UTC (link)
Being an assertive atheist has nothing to do with "getting off on being intellectually superior to other people" any more then being a believer does with "getting off on being morally superior to other people". I can find the same kind of people on the other side of the fence as well, with the scarier difference being they have political power.

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[info]templar569
2008-07-09 04:14 pm UTC (link)
The fact that there's asswipes on both sides of the argument doesn't change the fact that most "assertive atheists" I have encountered in my life have been, taken collectively, at *least* as smug a bunch of twats as the "I am Christian and saved and you are not so therefore I am better than you in every way" types.

Basically, what I'm saying is I'm just as opposed to self-diagnosed Asperger's kids who think it's OK to belittle regular folks who just need something in their lives beyond what they see as I am to dolts who run away from critical thinking like it's covered in Ebola.

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[info]tunaf
2008-07-09 05:10 pm UTC (link)
One of the reasons I tend to stay away from religous arguments is that it's hard not to come across as an intellectual asswipe. ;)

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[info]moestock
2008-07-09 05:11 pm UTC (link)
Dude, I couldn't agree with ya more.

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[info]enderwastaken
2008-07-09 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Speaking as one who has long experience in dealing with those who have faith and debate it, it is because those on the other side routinely use rank dishonesty to try to win, applying fallacies, passive aggression, and out and out lies at whim, because their faith calls for defense. Kachunkkachunk's posts in that thread illustrate that well - everyone is biased, and those who are divorced from the scenario and look at it objectively and hold them all to an equal burden of proof are "dick-waving shitheads". But then claim that since you didn't come out and say that when you were speaking of those who objectively stand back and hold all religions to an equal burden of proof are atheists, despite the fact that that is the atheist point of view on religion, you weren't attacking them. And note that that was with me being polite about it. I can point to numerous other examples (e.g. Dover trial where perjury was committed) that show the same trend. Yes, in the hypothetical an atheist can discuss faith without it coming down to being nasty, but in practice since most with faith hold it as part of their core identity, they feel questioning it is attacking them regardless and will respond accordingly. In fact in many cases even if they don't and it does remain civil, others will walk away feeling there was hostile subtext because in their mind faith should never be questioned.

As to discussing it in the first place, my above post and the threads like the SC license plate one cover that pretty well - live and let live doesn't work, so you might as well try to win over those on the fence.

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[info]kiwialyssa
2008-07-09 04:41 pm UTC (link)
You're acting as if it's some sort of game to gather recruits. By all means, call people out on false information and dishonestly when they are defending their ideals, that's not the issue at hand. Calling someone deluded or silly because they have faith and thrusting the burden of proof upon them and then crossing your arms and raising your eyebrow going "well? where's my proof your "God" exists" is ridiculous. A vast amount humans have always found comfort in having faith in something greater than themselves, and just because your bereft of that faith doesn't give you the right to shit all over it because they can't prove it through scientific means. I happen to be agnostic, and while that's certainly not atheism, I can discuss and question others beleifs without infringing upon them or generally discounting them as false because in the end I can only see and understand what science presents me, but science doesn't claim to know everything, and many theories and "facts" have been rewritten as we progress. So I leave the possibility open in my mind, whatever the stretch, that there could be something greater than us, a force we don't understand at work.

Yes some of the claims of "proof" for religion are absurd, and they should be investigated and questioned, but the core ideal of religion is faith, and when you begin to question someone's faith in something greater than them, what are you really trying to accomplish?

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[info]kiwialyssa
2008-07-09 05:01 pm UTC (link)
That's not to say that I don't hold some of their beliefs as misguided, misinformed, or morally reprehensible, but I can at least discuss these things with people if they're willing to not be thick headed about it.

If you're talking to a wall then stop, at least if you're wanting to debate in the first place.

If someone comes into a debate wanting to be an asshole more power to them but don't try to justify it as anything else than being a dick.

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[info]juliarandolph
2008-07-09 09:37 pm UTC (link)
I'm finding some of the comment threads to be deja-vu-ish.

And "flaming douchnozzle" is great! Can I pass it along? I don't think I'm going to need it for anything, but I bet [info]fish23420 would get some good mileage out of it.

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[info]templar569
2008-07-09 09:49 pm UTC (link)
I believe flaming douchnozzle is in the public domain, so go for it! :-)

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[info]moestock
2008-07-09 10:53 pm UTC (link)
I like Rusty Dicknozzle.

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